Some arguments need more than 140 characters. A minor dispute on Twitter on the link between bigotry and terrorism demonstrates this. So, for those with the skill and stamina to read more than 140 characters, here goes:
It is a matter of ordinary experience that a person who is treated badly may, eventually, react badly. If people in the West regularly condemn all Muslims, it is inevitable that some Muslims will begin to feel as though they are seen as the enemy, as though they are hated in the West. So, for example, British mosques have been attacked by anti-Muslim groups. In Australia, the construction of mosques has been violently opposed by some community groups, who were vocal in their condemnation of Muslims. Donald Trump has, in substance, said that Muslims should be excluded from the USA.
Any group confronted with hostility like this is likely to be offended. As a matter of ordinary human nature, it is easy to understand that some members of that group will react badly.
I do not approve of terrorists, whether Muslim, Red Brigade, Irish separatist or anything else. But I worry about the consequences of treating one group as if all members of that group present a threat to our Society. What we need to learn is that we are threatened by extremists. Of course there are Muslim extremists, just as there are extremists who adhere to other ideologies. We would be making a catastrophic mistake if we treat all Muslims as if they are extremists.
Until an expert in the field can show me that I am wrong, I will continue to hold the opinion that being the target of relentless bigotry will drive some people to extremism, and is therefore one cause of terrorism.
We are being very foolish if we continue to tolerate public abuse of Muslims generally.
Let us use your own examples, Julian, to show you where you have gone wrong.
“[T]he construction of mosques has been violently opposed by some community groups, who were vocal in their condemnation of Muslims”
Indeed, such opposition has been abhorrent and driven by bigotry. But would you then say of the bigots that, “Any group confronted with hostility like this is likely to be offended. As a matter of ordinary human nature, it is easy to understand that some members of that group will react badly”, where “hostility like this” is Islamic terrorism and “react badly” is their violent opposition to the mosques? Would you punch out a tweet saying, “Terrorism creates bigots, who were willing to see hope in everything”?
I think not.
If the bigotry is sufficiently enduring and relentless, yes I think some will be radicalised.
The best way to radicalise someone is to mistreat them long enough
Julian, please provide examples of other groups whose responses compare, in scale and brutality, with Islamic extremism / terrorism, where the radicalization was driven by what could be called unrelenting bigotry, as was probably experienced by many from, for example, the following groups:
– Indigenous Australians
– Post-WW2 immigrants to Australia e.g. Greeks, Italians; 1970’s Vietnamese refugees
– USA African Americans & Mexicans
– 1950’s Caribbean immigrants to UK
– Jews, anywhere
If that were the case Julian, then please explain how the Jewish people, who have suffered bigotry, hatred and genocide for the last thousand years at the hands of Muslims and Christians are by and large so peaceful except where the sovereignty of their homeland is concerned? Why aren’t we seeing Jewish suicide bombers in Berlin and Tehran?
Pretty much nobody is marginalizing the entire Muslim community. That’s a straw man. The only criticism leveled against the Muslim community, which happens to also be true, is that they are not doing enough to denounce the extremists within their own ranks.
Some people do not strike back when targetted by bigots. Others do.
So you are saying appease. You don’t know how to segment the market between muslims and islamists. You need to learn and quickly.
No: I am not saying “appease”. I sugest you read the piece again, and notice that I am arguing that we should not mistreat innocent people and we should not demonise a minority group because some of their co-religionists in another country are extremists.
Taking your logic to its conclusion, you would have condemned all Christians in Australia in response to sectarian violence in Ireland during the 20th Century.
And if YOU happen to be Christian, you will recall what Christ said in the parable of the Good Samaritan. If you recall it, could you remind Abbott, Morrison, Turnbull and Dutton?
Actually Zionism is Jewish terrorism. Consider what is being done to the Palestinians
Well said Julian.
I guess the difference is that the bigots usually have the numbers, so they spread their poison in relative safety. So terrorism probably does not create bigots.
On the other hand, acts of terrorism clearly opena path for bigotry to flourish: witnes the anti-Muslim sentiment which is ostensibly justified by the conduct of that small segment of Islam who resort to violent extremism. Extremist violence (which I unequivocally deplore) has mad it possible for people like Trump to gain popularity by urging general anti-Muslim sanctions.
Any group that is disenfranchised can feel resentment ..Australia needs policies of inclusion ..time to remind ourselves that we are a nation of immigrants ..
What if some immigrants don’t want inclusion? Besides forcing one group to like and tolerate another rarely works
The success of multi-culturalism in Australia discounts what you say
“I would say today, we can integrate all religions and races except Islam.”
Lee Kuan Yew, prime minister of multicultural Singapore for 31 years
I agree and stand by your opinion, Julian.
I believe the lampooning of the Prophet Mohammed by Charlie Hebdo publishers was a direct affront and provocation to the Muslim population in France and showed that bigotry can lead to violence, be that in the form of slander or rattling someone’s cage.
If you constantly poke the bear, chances are that you may get bitten.
Ignorance is at the core of all of this and the comments by Dr. Shanahan seem quite misguided.
Interesting how you make an analogy between (some) Muslims and bears, i.e. dangerous and aggressive wild animals who react with instinctive violence if provoked, with no concept of right and wrong to control their behavior.
You probably thought you were defending these people, but all you’ve done is exposed your own bigotry of low expectations.
So why no Christian terrorism in response to piss christ, or any comedy program shown on the ABC.
Could it be that much of the terrorism is people emulating the prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him); how far do you suggest we got to ensure that we are seen as provoking anyone by not showing insufficient respect to Mo (pbuh).
I fear that too many including JB are ignorant of what a disgraceful character Mo was, by contemporary standards. People are free to revere a bloke who kept captured women as sex slaves, but I don’t have to respect them for that choice; and I should be free to encourage my countrymen and women to avoid inviting more such people to immigrate here. Does that make me a bigot JB?
I got through “It is a matter of ordinary experience that a person who is treated badly may, eventually, react badly. If people in the West regularly …” and then my mind wondered, lost focus and I evidently gave up.
I’m sure whatever point you made was compelling, but my brain has been conditioned to only digest and process bite size pieces of irrelevant opinion and thesis.
Actually, I lie, I read the heading of the article, and then felt compelled to comment :/
Thanks Matt
The preponderance of bite-sized pieces of information makes it difficult to get an argument understood, let alone accepted.
So where have you been all these years, Julian Burnside, as the Catholic Church has been attacked relentlessly in the press and in the arts (think “Piss Christ” in galleries, think recent picture of the Pope made out of condoms, think Our Lady painted with excrement, think churches in Melbourne attacked and burned down, think bishops being hauled off to courts for merely stating what has been the unwavering beliefs of the Church for 2,000 years).
Not a peep out of the great JB QC – nothing.
Because those sorts of attacks are AOK with him.
And why is it not that the constant attacks by muslims on everyone else around the world should also not cause its own reaction?
Your foolishness is only exceeded by your naivety – as your support of “refugee” Aladdin Sisalem so eloquently demonstrates.
As I have said before, it is different being part of an unpopular minority that’s under attack and being part of the majority.
And do’ot believe that Christians never become extremists
Mate – are you seriously proposing that the Catholic Church is “part of the majority”?
If so – you merely confirm that you don’t have a flipping clue.
The Catholic Church is an absolute, unpopular minority that is under attack from all of your sorts of people – and I expect you to get off your well-heeled derriere and defend it with the same alacrity and fervour with which you defend poor downtrodden muslims.
Lest you be called out as yet another useless hypocrite.
And as to your comment about Christians becoming extremists – how many muslims are in Australian high security jails right now for planning (but failing) to kill as many ordinary Australians as possible in islamic terrorist attacks – and how many Christians are in jail for the same offences?
If you are seriously trying to draw some sort of equation between muslims and Christians in this respect, you are not only a fool but a liar.
Catholics represent the largest religioius group in Australia. In the 2011 census the results were:
Roman Catholicism (25.3%)
Anglicanism (17.1%)
Other Christian (18.7%)
Buddhism (2.5%)
Islam (2.2%)
Hinduism (1.3%)
Other religions (1.2%)
No religion (22.3%)
Not stated or unclear (9.4%)
Good on you mate – you make me laugh.
By your words, Catholics make up 25% of the Australian population.
That means 75% of the population is not Catholic.
That makes Catholics a minority.
And that is amplified by the fact that the majority of those who classify themselves as “Catholic” are cultural Catholics rather than practising Catholics.
If we are going to adopt your logic, we should also recognise that Australian muslims belong to the religion they claim is that which is the biggest and fastest-growing in the world – islam.
Which would make them a majority.
Which means they do not need your help and succour.
So enough of that pathetic red herring – Catholics are a minority – it is about time you climbed up on to your noble steed and came to the rescue of we poor, abused, marginalised and badly-done-by Catholics.
I mean – Catholic churches being deliberately destroyed by fire by the enemies of the Church is completely unacceptable – isn’t it?
As are the constant attacks made on the religious beliefs of Catholics by those who sneer and insult God, Our Lady, Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity through word, through deed and through “art” such as “Piss Christ”.
No-one has the right to constantly demean, ridicule, insult and attack Catholics and their beliefs – do they?
Or are you, in fact, just another twisted face in the howling mob that fantasises over the destruction of the Church – thereby rendering you a hypocrite in doing nothing whilst all these outrages occur?
I mean – as I understand your position – apparently you reckon that we Catholics, having endured a constant attack from those hostile to the Church for decades if not centuries, are apparently able to ultimately stand up and fight back.
Apparently such a Catholic reaction would be completely understandable and should very much be anticipated by the authorities, who should only act in sympathy with whatever we Catholics decide to do to manifest our outrage.
Your theory, as I see it, is that cannot be surprised if the dog you keep kicking turns around and bites you.
And the time has come for we Catholic dogs (as I used to be called on the way home from school back in the 60s) to show a bit of fang and get stuck into those laying in the boot.
What say you, Burnside, Bastion of the Beleaguered?
Well, it seems you did not get a Jesuit education: they are very good at teaching logic.
the figures I gave you show that Catholics are the biggest kid on the block.
You retreat into the argument that some Catholics are “cultural Catholics”. That’s true of many Australia Muslims, too.
Your suggestion that Muslims are the majority is so bizarre as to defy analysis: You have apparently closed your mind in case some facts leak in. Muslims represent less than one tenth of the number of Catholics.
Incidentally, your attempts to ridicule me do not worry me in the least, but they tend to undermine any suggestion that your comments should be taken seriously.
Thank you Bernie. Your argument was clear and precise. It made Burnsides argument look more and more ridiculous, but he won’t see it. It wouldn’t matter to him who else was persecuted. He seems obsessed with how he thinks Muslims feel. It’s not healthy, not at all.
I am only putting this comment up to show that I don’t block people who either can’t or won’t think, or who are blinded by bigotry.
Thanks for the great article Julian, now i understand what forces gave birth to the KKK and the Donald Trump movement – white people in the USA just need to be treated with more respect.
Thanks CT
Sory you did not understand my point properly: I must try to express myself more clearly
Terrorism aside there is still the issue of the following….Child marriage, FGM, misogyny, first cousin marriage and so on and so on. Islam is a deeply dysfunctional belief system. As for opposing mosques, would you like one wailing away nearby?
I am not sure that meets the argument, but it’s an interesting point. Incidentally, I firmly believe that people who settle in this country should be required to accept its basic standards
That’s good to hear and all very well but in the real world mere band aids are applied to infractions against our basic standards. Acceptance of such barbarities is unfortunately part of our culture now, there has been one prosecution for FGM so far but we’ve had FGM clinics for over 20 years now. A schoolmate of mine disappeared back in 1979, she was married at 14 to a 36 year old, all legal under her culture but rarely prosecuted in ours so far. Perhaps you desire to help end this but our laws, your profession seem unable to cope with it. A healthy and vibrant society should be able to see it for what it is and reject it. The ‘international community’ would call it racist however Poland, Hungary and other states have traveled that path Instead we have a slow, agonizing struggle to see the bleeding obvious.
If we apply JB’s logic, the message sent is that we should focus on the ‘short skirt’ as causality of rape above other factors. We should focus on the ‘provocation’ caused by satirical cartoons rather than the victims who were murdered and an intolerance culture to free speech. This is extremely disturbing intellectual dishonesty coming from a QC.
That’s false reasoning.
My point is a simple point about human responses: some people, who suffer bigotry for long enough, will be radicalised. Not everyone.
If you do not recognise this, you need to get out more. Or even better: ask all the women you know to get around wearing a headscarf in public for a couple of weeks and ask them how it feels to be identified as Muslim.
None of this involves blaming the victims of terrorism, by the way.
Give it up Julian, you can’t defend the indefensible. Muslims murder innocent people for no other reason than that given them by Mohammed.
For centuries, theologians have been explaining the unknowable in terms of the-not-worth-knowing.